prudence and jonas: cancer changed everything
Prudence and Jonas Davis met each other as teens and have been together for 10 years. That sounds like the beginning of a love story - and it is in many ways. But it’s a lot more than that. The couple has had to deal with big complicated traumas early on in their lives as Jonas got diagnosed with cancer not once but twice. That’s hard for any couple (and anyone) but it completely shifted the path for Prudence and Jonas who had to rethink life as they knew it in their early 20s. This conversation is so honest and important as it goes into depth in regards to how it affected their relationship, their identities and their intimacy. And even though it was a hard conversation to have, it is important for them to step forward and talk about it because - as they both say - they wish they had had people they could have mirrored themselves in when they were standing in the middle of this. They’re still in it - because you don’t go backwards when you have experienced what they have. But I won’t spoil too much because I really think they explain it better themselves.
Prudence: I’m Prudence Davis, I’m Jonas’ wife and we’ve been together for 10 years. I work as a health expert and manager in One Thirty Lab. I’m a pilates and reformer teacher and I study a bit on the side. And then I’ve been volunteering at Centre for Cancer and Health (Center for Kræft og Sundhed) for many years. It’s all about health - mental and physical.
Jonas: And I’m Jonas Davis - after we got married. I work at a pension firm with risk. I code, look at excel sheets. The boring stuff - but I like to nerd. I like to immerse myself and get really good at something. I do everything - from math to sport. It’s sometimes hard being present when I get a new interest.
So you are in two quite different worlds so how did you connect?
Jonas: I guess we connected on quite a human and spiritual and physical level. It was about energy.
Prudence: Yes, it was about energy. We met at Toldboden (a Copenhagen club) 10 years ago. It was late… almost morning. Which is pure luck because I have a saying “nothing good happens after 2 am” so normally I wouldn’t be out at that point. I was hanging in the corner and suddenly Jonas came up to me. He wanted us to dance. That’s when my life started. I remember it clearly - life changing. Our energies… we knew we just had to be together. For me it was about trust - but it also felt very exciting and almost… mysterious. You say that you impact each other’s nerve systems and I definitely think our systems fit together. Even though the world tried to challenge us…
Jonas: Yes, I was about to start the third year of high school. At that point I was probably more a nerd about going out. I felt I owned the world. I could do anything I want. And if I can do anything, then I knew I had to talk to Prudence. She was the most beautiful person in the club. But on the night so many people tried to challenge us and try to split us up. But the more people tried, the more we wanted to stick together.
Prudence: We were basically together non-stop for 1,5 years… it was such an intense feeling. We couldn’t get enough of each other. We’re so different but that’s also why we’re so in awe of each other. We learn from each other. We’re not the same people we were when we met 10 years ago.
It’s amazing you knew you had to be together. It sounds like you didn’t really play the game.
Prudence: We just couldn’t be without each other. And it’s still like that sometimes… there’s never been doubt. Yes, we have times with more fights. But never doubt. We know that this is it. And we also got that confirmed during the two periods with illness that we’ve gone through. Where we were very physical in the beginning, the love has turned into something different today…
Could you tell us a bit about the first time you got sick, Jonas?
Jonas: It started with my dad dying in 2014 and then in 2015 I got diagnosed with lymphatic cancer.
Prudence: You needed a lot of chemo but you were also doing your bachelor thesis. It almost just felt like we had to get through it.
It sounds like a lot of things happened at the same time? How did you handle that?
Jonas: Yeah… We’ve already spoken about my nerd approach to the world, how I get a bit intense. I was studying, had a job and had my own company on the side too… and I was a boyfriend too. I wanted to be the best at everything. I needed to get the best grades but also be there for people. It was a lot and I was stressed - and I also had to figure out how to be family after my dad passed away. So it almost felt like a relief the first time I had cancer… I needed someone to say stop.
Prudence: Yeah, that’s scary.
Jonas: But I still didn’t quit studying. I went to an exam a few days after my dad’s death. I didn’t delay my degree. I had my cancer radiation treatment for a month but I would head into the school straight after radiation. I didn’t stop.
So when you got out on the other side, did you learn to slow down?
Jonas: Not really. My cancer was aggressive. But the good thing is that the chemo is effective. The stat said that I would survive for five years with 100% certainty. So I just took it. I just had to get on with it because I knew I would be okay if I did what they said.
Prudence: It wasn’t a part of your identity.
Jonas: No, I was certain I would fight it. It was my responsibility, I would get out on the other side.
How did both of your roles feel?
Prudence: I’ve had two very different roles in the two different experiences. The first time was hard because I felt very alone as I knew no one who could relate. No one knew how to react.
Jonas: I remember I was told a lot that I was ‘cool’. Because I was writing my bachelor thesis at the same time. And I hated that because it almost reminded me of not being able to take care of myself. It wasn’t a choice for me, it was just how I dealt with it. I was actually angry at myself about going to the exam just after my dad passed.
Prudence: I always thought something bad would happen because life was too perfect before. So when it happened, it almost felt like… of course. It couldn’t keep going this well. Even though I’m a very positive thinker.
Were you good at talking about things?
Prudence: No… not the first time. I felt very alone. It was a different life, where I would just drink a lot of red wine, smoke cigarettes and eat junk. It was such a lonely feeling. We dealt with differently - and on our own… I almost don’t remember how we were intimately. I remember being afraid of breaking you. We didn’t have words for how we should be with each other. We lost this ‘youth innocence ‘ - you realise you won’t live forever. But we were so young. I got depressed after Jonas got declared free of cancer, I started rethinking everything. My work, my relationships. I couldn’t pretend things were okay.
Did you feel you had to be the strong one?
Prudence: Of course. I went to the toilet to cry. I had to be the strong one and I didn’t want to put pressure on Jonas.
Jonas: I had this idea that if I followed the plan, then I’ll be fine. I needed to keep studying. It demanded a lot from me - especially when you want to get top grades. I couldn’t do that and do a lot of other things. But it took all my energy and it took away my empathy for our relationship. So Prudence felt alone… because I kept going when I was declared well. So that created a lot of distance. I actually felt I had to be the strong one because I had to deal with everything while I also had to keep studying. But I could feel the anger in our relationship. I almost felt criticised by the way I dealt with things. Prudence had a need to talk over everything and rethink everything. I had a need to live up to all the demands I felt the society had laid out for me. I constantly felt I didn’t do enough.
Prudence: Yes. And the intimate space was hard because of that distance.
Jonas: Yeah… but my plan didn’t go as I thought it would. A doctor had once said that there was a small risk that I could get cancer from the chemo. I didn’t even think about it twice because the doctor said I shouldn’t as the risk was so small… Prudence did, but I thought it was silly. I got declared cancer free in the summer of 2016. I proposed to Prudence shortly after. But already in April / May we realised something wasn’t right. They couldn’t figure out what it was…
Prudence: And I started googling. And I found this cancer called MDS. I knew it was that.
Jonas: I remember seeing a brochure saying ‘MDS - learn to live with it’. Because you can’t get declared free from it. After my third test of my bone marrow they found out that it was that. Or it was a mix of two different types. You can get it from chemo treatment. Small risk, but it’s possible. And it’s more dangerous when it comes from chemo, more aggressive. But I could have a bone marrow transplant. It is very risky, your body might reject it. And your immune system is completely non-exciting for a long time. This diagnosis felt very different from the first time. We didn’t even talk about statistics because they’re so bad. That changed my mind set… It pushed me.
Prudence: We both knew something had to change. We had to change our entire life. We couldn’t just expect the doctors to make Jonas well. It also meant I really thought through how I could be a good ‘next of kin’. I also took time off work to care for Jonas. And we had to rethink our connection. When the physical isn’t an option as it was before, then you have to tap into something different. And there weren't a lot of resources back then… when you’re in your mid-20’s and don’t know if you’ll be here tomorrow. It’s hard to create an intimate space then. But I found one book and the number one advice was: communicate. I knew we had to keep having conversations and create space for each other. Intimacy could be going for a walk, lying together, holding each other. Jonas had a catheter which made it hard to be together physically. We had to rethink it completely. It’s hard to feel sexy when death is present all the time. Jonas was also very skinny… and I had to discover what my femininity was. Self-care was my way out and my way of tackling it. I had to care for myself, create some good routines. Because Jonas wasn’t in a place where he could do that.
It sounds like the anger you had completely disappeared and you were very much in this together.
Prudence: Yes. I had dealt with my anger. I knew we had to do this together - but I also knew we had to do it differently. We had to live like today could be the last. Our love became so intense and the small stuff didn’t matter. I had PTSD… I would wake up in the middle of the night to see if he was breathing. I never knew if our kiss would be the last. This intensifies the love.
Jonas: Yes. I also knew we had to tackle it differently. So I went over to Prudence’s approach. We went to therapy, different groups - I started to nerd health. But I also went more spiritual because you have to open your mind when you have to hope. It felt very meaningful. The small stuff took up less space.
Being the patient and being the carer are two very different roles but both very difficult. How did you handle this? Did you feel you took on those parts or did it feel like the experience was very equal?
Prudence: I had to redefine that role. I read that a lot of carers would get sick - I have also gotten sick - or they got burned out. Or they got divorced. I didn’t want that to happen. I went all in on being a good carer. I saw it as an identity. I made a podcast, I helped others who were in the same situation. It’s only the last two years that I have taken a distance to that role. But I needed to go all in because I felt very lonely in that role. I had to find a meaning in it.
Jonas: You’ve always been a few years ahead of me in regards to your emotions and sometimes you’ve had to drag me along. I think it’s so impressive how you were so aware of all these things. You were hired by the council to take care of me for 6 months. A lot of people thought Prudence had time off - but that wasn’t how it was…
Prudence: Yeah… it wasn’t something fun. But I needed to make sure that we could see ourselves in it. A lot of my friends misunderstood it. And I understand why - we were two very young people who were confronted with death every day. It was so tough. I don’t know how we would have gotten through it if we hadn’t spent time on really finding the right tools to get through it… Jonas is a part of my dream. My life dream. So if he isn’t here, then my life dream is gone. We were both affected. It was both our lives. We were both in high alert mode all the time. It’s taught me so much - something I also use today. I understand what happens to the body when you go through something like this. And the connection between the mental and the physical.
It sounds like you dealt with this really well - it sounds like you communicated a lot. But you were still in a carer/patient dynamic and that doesn’t necessarily reflect the classic image of masculinity and sexiness if you look towards Hollywood. How did this affect your confidence?
Jonas: We talked with a therapist at the Cancer Center where I found out I didn’t have a connection to my masculinity. Apparently I have a need to be a (in some ways) stereotypical man who takes care of Prudence. But I couldn’t live up to that role. It hurt a lot. And it was hard to admit… It made intimacy hard. I felt like I didn’t have a value as a partner, which is so difficult. That was how it affected me mentally. But it was also hard physically of course.
Prudence: We had to step into the vulnerable space. It was the only way we could be intimate. We cried a lot while we were together. Because you get close in a completely different way. It’s beautiful and very different from the way we were together when we first met. Society wouldn’t exactly call crying sexy - but that has become a part of our intimate space. There’s space for every type of emotion. I’ve felt very shameful about crying when we’re intimate but we’ve made it okay. I’ve felt wrong and been frustrated that even our intimate space has been shaped by illness. Couldn’t that be our break from it? But no, that is not how it works.
Jonas: Yes we spoke a lot about that.
Prudence: We’ve also had to talk about expectations. I’ve had to break free from my old ways. We’ve had to redefine intimacy. It can be looking into each other’s eyes. Or holding hands. And then the spiritual things - like meditation or going to the sauna at One Thirty Labs together.
Do you feel like you’ve let go of the stereotypes or are they still there?
Prudence: I’ve completely let go of them. Also in regards to my own body. It isn’t important when you tap into the spiritual layer. It isn’t about putting on make-up or sexy underwear. For me it’s more about doing something nice and calm like taking a bath.
Jonas: The old roles… or stereotypes … they’re still relevant. But we’ve gotten aware. It’s not those roles that are the driven factors. It can still be fun to tap into those roles if we have the energy to do it. But our desire comes from us two feeling completely connected. Prudence, you mentioned that crying couldn’t be sexy… I don’t agree. Because I’ve felt shame - I’ve been the ‘tough Jonas’ who didn’t connect to my emotions. Almost as if I was to blame for getting sick because I didn’t take care of myself. Of course I need to take care of myself - but I shouldn’t have to take the blame for my entire illness. So when I finally feel I can be there for my wife, then I feel sexy. I am no longer focused on studying, work - my path. I can just give myself to my wife. That makes me feel good. When I can feel your anger being turned to sadness, then I feel we’ve gotten somewhere. That makes me connect with my desire. Because it shows me I can be there for you even though I’m not a man in the way I used to think a man was supposed to be. That is sexy to me. Even though it feels weird to use that word here. But it’s the feeling of being on the same page that creates the intimate space.
Prudence: It can be hard… because sometimes you don’t feel like crying. We’ve had to accept that is how our intimate space is right now. In three years from now it might be different.
Jonas: Yeah we’ve really had to work with accepting that quite opposite feelings are allowed in that space. Being turned on AND being sad.
Prudence: We’ve had to get out of our heads and into the body.
Jonas: And that isn’t always nice when your body is sick.
Sex is often seen as pure pleasure. But it makes so much sense - because it is when you’re most connected.
Prudence: Yes, intimacy is the glue.
It sounds like you’ve been very good at reflecting over these things. What about those who don't have the tools or the energy to dig into this? Do you feel like you got support in regards to how you keep being a couple and how to be intimate? Did you have that guidance?
Prudence: We found ONE book. With short stories about couples who had been through similar journeys. But none of them were young. But I could see communication was the key. But there’s so many things we didn’t know or weren’t told about. Like once where Jonas was on some medicine which changed his personality and I had no idea. I had to just google and try to figure out what was happening. There’s a lot more stuff now - and a lot more focus on the people around the patient. Because we’re important to make the person fight for something. I’m not sure where we would be together if our love hadn’t been so strong. But today there’s a lot of podcasts… like Nannas Nekrologer (Nanna’s obituaries).
So where are you at with your illness? Because the brochure said you had to live it?
Jonas: Yes, that’s because elderly people can’t get treatment. But I got a transplant - which often leads to another chronic illness. Which I have gotten - that’s also why I’ve gone all in on health.
Prudence: And the doctors don't know much about it.
Jonas: I’ve been cured for cancer. But there’s of course a risk it’ll come back. And I can get very sick from viruses like influenza. And then there was COVID…
And is that for life?
Jonas: Yes in principle. My immune system can attack my body. It’s hyper-alert. It’s autoimmunity. I’m still on medicine, I have to be super careful. I am so aware of what I eat but it’s so hard because there’s no straight or easy way. I’ve been to the hospital several times in the last few years. Sometimes I get too focused on my health - it gets unhealthy. But if I let go too much, it’s unhealthy too.
Prudence: I have gone the completely other way as I need to let go of my role as a carer. But I am always on the lookout to help others who are in the same situation as we were. But I’ve gone all in on other projects in life… studying, work, projects. But it doesn’t matter how much we try to detach ourselves from illness and those roles - but it’s still going to be there. It’ll always be there. In a different way, but it’s still there. Everyone will have to go through traumas in life - but the more we talk about it, the easier it is to go through these crises. Because a lot of people won’t know the tools - but we become better at talking about the life after or with fear and illness, the less other people will feel alone in this.
Do you have any advice to other people who are finding themselves in a situation like this? Not that there is an easy way…
Prudence: You need people you can mirror yourselves in. But of course it’s hard for people to step forward and talk about this. That’s also why we want to talk about it. We’re still in it. You don’t get ‘over it’. Society wants us to move forward but we need to just be for a moment. But my biggest advice would be: talk. You could literally time it on your phone, set aside 10 minutes and tell the other person how you’re feeling. Because if you don’t know how each other are feeling, the distance will grow. And then be honest - also if it isn’t pretty. Also in regards to the intimate space. Tell your partner if you aren’t comfortable in your body.
Jonas: Try to think of your situation. Don’t try to do what you know - but rethink it according to your situation. One of our books said to lie naked next to each other without doing anything. If you’re already exhausted it can feel really hard to have the pressure of having to perform. Just lying there together really worked for us…
Prudence: Yes, I am so grateful for that. You need to care for your intimacy. To prioritise it. If we’re good, then it’s easier to step into the world together.
Jonas: Yes. And I totally agree in regards to talking together. But it can be hard if you hear your partner has needs and you can’t give them what they need. But instead of making communication another task - but if that feels like it’s too much, then figure out what else you can do.
Prudence: Be curious in regards to what the other person needs and not just what you’re told is the right thing to do.
So true. There shouldn’t be rules. And you should redefine what intimacy is for you over and over again throughout life. Because rules can be such a barrier if you feel like you can’t live up to them. You feel guilty.
Prudence: Yes. We live so many lives in just one life. So go with the flow and accept your situation. But keep trying, if it makes sense. One thing that’s helped us is to have hope and something to look forward to. It doesn’t have to be big things, but being able to go for a bit longer walk or hope that I can sleep.
Thank you so much for this chat.
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